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Climate Podcast: Trees matter. But just how much?
Transcript
果冻影院听Minds听 0:01听听听
We are the first generation to feel the impact of climate change and the last generation that can do something about it.听
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Mat听Disney听 0:09听听听
People love a听headline,听people want to sell the bullet for climate change. And it you know, there isn't one听really other听than decarbonizing the economy.听
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Mark听Maslin听 0:18听听听
So听if you think about a trillion trees that is the same land area as the whole the United States of America,听
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Craig听Bennett听 0:24听听听
and the Wildlife Trust, we are beaver ready, and we don't need Michael Gove for that one.听
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Matt听Winning听 0:32听听听
Hi there, and welcome to the podcast generation one. I'm Matt Winning this week, we're talking trees. Trees are often hailed as a bit of a climate crisis hero - plant more trees. And companies jump on this bandwagon. And they say for every coffee bought, we all plant a tree. But what does this mean for the climate and the climate crisis? What is the impact of more trees? And the most important single question for today's episode? Why do trees matter?听
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果冻影院听Minds听 1:02听听听
You're listening to 果冻影院 generation one, turning science and ideas into climate action.听
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Matt听Winning听 1:12听听听
I am joined with Mark Maslin again, with Mark Maslin and by Mark Maslin, I don't know what the correct term is.听
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Mark听Maslin听 1:17听听听
I'm just here. Okay, man, I exist. I am therefore I am part you听just听yet your wonderful ecology called our podcast. There's this whole thing about trees, which is there's this paper that was published a couple of years ago, we should听actually plant听a trillion trees. Yeah.听So听if you think about a trillion trees, that is the same land area as the whole the United States of America. Yeah, it's a big undertaking. And even Donald Trump got on got with this idea and said, yes, it's a good idea to plant a trillion trees. And they said,听Well, this was solved climate change. They sort of forgot, even if you did that, that would take out perhaps five years of our pollution.听So听it really doesn't solve climate change. It helps you听and actually, it's听something positive if you do it in the right place. But it's, you know, it's not going to be the great solution.听听
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Matt听Winning听 1:33听听听
So听it's not the silver bullet in terms of solving climate change. Okay, well as introduce our guest for today. That is Matt Disney, who's a professor of remote sensing in the Department of Geography at 果冻影院. Matt, welcome.听听
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Mat听Disney听 2:21听听听
Thank you very much. Nice to be here.听
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Matt听Winning听 2:23听听听
Not at all I'm interested to hear about basically, you seem to be using technology to look at trees.听
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Mat听Disney听 2:28听听听
Yes, that's right.听So听I you know, my title remote sensing. So that's looking at the Earth's surface, using satellites and aircraft and any bits of kit that we can get our hands on, that gives us a better picture of what's happening. And I've been particularly interested in trees and forests over the last five or 10 years. And what I've really been doing is using kind of听high resolution, three dimensional听mapping techniques that fire out millions of听laser听beams a second from an instrument on a听tripod, and听build up a听three dimensional听picture of trees and forests. And we've been dragging this kind of equipment through tropical forests over the last few years, to build up these very, very detailed听three dimensional听pictures of trees, which help us understand the relationship between their structure, how much carbon they store, right? And of course, then that's the link to climate.听听
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Matt听Winning听 3:16听听听
So yeah, obviously, if anyone doesn't know their trees, spray important soak up carbon, kind of store it, keep it safe for a bit,听听
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Mat听Disney听 3:24听听听
depending on what happens to them.听听
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Matt听Winning听 3:25听听听
Exactly. Yep.听Depending听if they're still听still听there. That sounds,听first of all听fascinating. And you're basically just creating cool maps of trees.听
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Mat听Disney听 3:36听听听
Well, that's, you know, that's one aspect of it that is, that's very kind of eye catching, is that we build听these kind听of听three dimensional听pictures of the trees are very striking. And but it enables us to kind of measure the size and volume and structure of trees in a way that basically hasn't been possible to do before.听听
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Matt听Winning听 3:54听听听
You don't want to cut them open,听
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Mat听Disney听 3:55听听听
You don't want to cut them down. Well, first question is, how do you weigh the tropical forests? Yeah.听So听there's a kind of question that, you know, sort of occurring to me is, how do you how do you even weigh a tree? Because you don't want to do that one at a time? Well, sometimes you听have to, and the only way to do it for real is to cut it down to cut it into chunks, right to dry those chunks out to get rid of the water. Yeah. And then whatever you've got left to kind of the dried bit of wood, about half of that is carbon. And听so听to do that, if even a听small trees听is, you know, is hard work, tedious. It's expensive, and the trees gone. And it's gone. Yeah.听So听if you think about that, for a 50-60 metre tropical giant in the middle of you know, Borneo, or the Congo Basin, obviously, you don't want to cut them down. So, you know, the methods that we've been developing is a kind of alternative to that.听
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Mark听Maslin听 4:41听听听
So听So听Matt, I mean, this is what I love about science because we'll each other's groupies because your stuff is just so amazing. But can you explain to the listeners, how do the lasers听actually give听you a picture? I mean, sort of like how do you听actually get听this sort of picture of the actual trees?听听
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Matt听Winning听 4:56听听听
Okay, so you've got basically an instrument sitting on a tripod which fires is out pulses of laser light several 100,000 times a second. And those laser beams have a range of up to about a kilometre.听So听they're in the near infrared, so you can't see them. And they speed out at the speed of light into the forest. And if they hit something, then some of that energy is听returned back听to the instrument it records and it says,听Okay, this pulse hits something at this XYZ location, you know, 77 metres away.听So听it's a point. And听so听if we do that 100s of 1000s of times a second, we build up millions of points that tell us where there is stuff in in the area around us in the volume around us. Then you find out things like you know, a big tropical tree can have 10-15 kilometres of branches in it once you laid them out end to end. You know, these branches can we found a tree that we scanned in Kew Gardens, for example, a big chestnut tree there had 28 kilometres of branches. Amazing number听
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Mark听Maslin听 5:55听听听
So听didn't you do somebody famous? Didn't you have an oak tree? And I have to say the results from that just blew my mind.听
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Matt听Winning听 6:03听听听
Yes.听So听we听we听got asked by the BBC to go and scan Dame Judi Dench's back garden. And I've had more communication and kudos for doing that than anything else I'll ever do in my career. That was a that was very entertaining because she was great to work with a听really good听sport and fascinated by the science that came out of it.听听
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I was hoping for a story like that.听听
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Mat听Disney听 6:26听听听
celebrity trees as a TV show.听
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Mark听Maslin听 6:30听听听
But Matt, don't worry now after this podcast, they'll just be Yeah, they'll be talking about the podcast. Yeah, Dame Judi Dench, nothing to our podcast.听So听what was the outcome of that tree because I mean, it was听really quite听old oak听tree听and I was quite amazed by the size of it as well.听
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Matt听Winning听 6:48听听听
So that tree is about 200 years old.听So听in terms of oaks, it's a good you know, early middle age, about the same as me, you know, strong early middle age. But there are trees or oak trees around in Britain that are estimated to be over 1000 years old and places like Windsor, great park and in听Savernake forest, that are mostly huge and hollow and there's very little foliage left growing, but the trees are still alive. They're still growing, but because they're hollow, they're essentially impossible to age. Dame Judy's tree was about 25 tonnes of carbon, and it had about 18 kilometres of branches in it.听So听she was kind of blown away when we were given those figures. But you know, to put that into context, like I say, a big, tropical hardwood, we were measured the tallest tree, quote, unquote, in the tropics, possibly the tallest flowering plants in the world. There's an angiosperm tree in Southeast Asia, which was just over 100 metres tall and weighed 80 tonnes.听
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Mark听Maslin听 7:53听听听
What about the argument that we should be planting a trillion trees? Your听your听technology can听actually tell听us where they're being planted? How much carbon they're storing? I mean, is this a good idea?听
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Matt听Winning听 8:04听听听
Well, going back to what we're finding with our, you know, our measurements of carbon in trees and forests,听first of all, bottom line听is were听showing that the current estimates seem to be an underestimate of how much carbon is stored in trees and forests. And that's because in order to do you know, doing one tree or 100 trees, or 1000 trees is all very well, but you need to extrapolate across the whole of the tropics, 3 trillion trees. And in order to do that, you need simplified models, you need satellite estimates. And the models that are used currently to generate those estimates of how much carbon is in tropical forests, we think are fair under our estimate, planting trees, this idea of a trillion trees that you know, that might, you know, you brought up, it's, it's one that very much catches people's attention. It's, you know, people have a catchy number. People love a听headline,听people want a silver bullet for climate change. And it you know, there isn't one听really other听than decarbonizing the economy. So, that's the silver bullet. But that's the one that people don't really want to hear. You plant loads of trees in places where maybe, let's think about Northern China where there's huge afforestation programmes going on, which in general is there to do things like protecting hydrological systems and preventing you know, flash flooding and runoff. Good thing. From a climate perspective, those trees are听actually quite听dark in colour compared to the听background听so they听actually absorb听more sunlight.听So听the surface听actually gets听warmer than it would have done if you left it with no trees and snow cover in the winter. Because it changes what we call the albedo reflectivity of the surface. And when you do that, on a very large scale, you suddenly have impacts on you know, heating up the surface, which are unintended consequences, you're听actually making听things warmer, which evaporates more water which affects the hydrological cycle and听and听on you go you didn't think of that听
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Yeah, sounds like an incredibly complex system and if throwing trees down really shouldn't be fuel on the fire, but it's potential fuel.听
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Mat听Disney听 10:02听听听
So, you know, thinking about the idea of planting trees and you know, coming back to I do some work quite a lot of work on urban forests, you know, people want what is an urban forest. And you know, London is a great example London, there are 9 million trees in London, there are more trees and people, there are parts of London, we did some work showing that the amount of carbon stored per hectare in places like Highgate Cemetery, are equivalent to the carbon stored in tropical rainforest. Wow. Because there are big old trees that have been left untouched to grow for several 100 years. And听they're, you know, they're very beautiful. And they're kind of, you know, they're easy to leave there because no one wants to come in and cut trees down in a cemetery.听So听trees in cities are incredibly important. We all know that moderate temperature, and we just like having them around. And there are definite health benefits to having trees, protecting trees that we have already large old tree, London's full of them. Yeah, but there's this race to plant more trees. But where do you put them? The mortality rate is about 95%. Oh, wow.听So听you plant the tree, and in 20 years, it probably won't be there. And it's 20 years to 30 years is when it starts to really give you those benefits back.听
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Matt听Winning听 11:10听听听
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so much again, to myself, you know, didn't do much for the first 30 years of my life. And now,听听
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Mat听Disney听 11:16听听听
just coming into your prime,听听
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Matt听Winning听 11:17听听听
yeah, me and Jesus.听
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Mark听Maslin听 11:20听听听
So Matt, if, if you had a magic wand, and based on all the incredible science you're doing, where would you plant trees? If you were in control, you are making policy? What should we do?听
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Mat听Disney听 11:32听听听
One of the first things I do is听is, you know, it's听actually one听of the things I'm trying to do听at the moment听is looking at what we have already, because that's one of the things that is听actually done. There's, there's, there's a race to see, why should we plant more trees. And there are lots of spaces, there are lots of brownfield sites, I was just thinking about the UK, there's lots of brownfield sites, there are lots of areas of urban development where there are rules about you know, what you听have to听do in terms of planting trees and providing access to green space. But the rules are very easy to get around, and they're very easy to gain is perhaps the wrong word. But you can plant lots of small trees. And then if there's no requirement for you to look after them, after five years, after five years, they'll be gone. Yeah.听So听Glasgow听at the moment, and Belfast are planting a million trees. Again, a big number that's easy to communicate. In Belfast, they don't know where they're going to plant them. In Glasgow, there are there are areas where they're going to plant and there's no real then, okay, well, we're going to plant those trees and ensure that they survive at a rate of 50%. For 25 years. People want to see, yeah, photo op, planting, you know, hey,听听
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Matt听Winning听 11:33听听听
the fun bit听听
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Mat听Disney听 12:02听听听
the fun bit, aren't people don't want to come back every year and go,听Okay, well, what's happened? And what's happening here? And how long is this going to live? For?听听
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Matt听Winning听 12:51听听听
Are you going to sell this technology and give it to听everbody?听听
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Mat听Disney听 12:53听听听
No, not something I'm going to, you know, we're听gonna听make sure that it's out there, open access science, that's what it's all about. But you know that, you know, we're developing tools using things like Google Earth Engine, where you can already do a far better job than is being done currently about assessing what we have in cities in the UK. So, you know, we've got data now that will allow us to do that from aircraft and from space. So why aren't we using it to inform policy better, because it's听really easy听to do?听
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Matt听Winning听 13:19听听听
That was听absolutely fascinating. And I feel like I've learned a huge amount about trees. And as you say, you know, protect the ones we already have, what ones are already doing well, and then the ones that you do plant, look after them for a long time, I think sounds excellent. And hopefully one day we'll all have a scanner going around, scanning around what we do.听
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Mat听Disney听 13:37听听听
You know, the space station flying over听at the moment, it's got a big laser on board that's measuring trees and forests are called Jedi. Of course, it is it's a NASA instrument.听
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Mark听Maslin听 13:44听听听
Ah, I'm sorry that's brilliant听听
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Mat听Disney听 13:47听听听
ecosystem dynamics investigate just a little plot. I've worked with the Jedi team. And you know, they've milked that for all it's a bit yeah,听
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Matt听Winning听 13:54听听听
of course听they听have to.听
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Mark听Maslin听 13:55听听听
I was听gonna听say, can you imagine linking Jedi to your mobile phone?听So听you could听actually see听
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Mat听Disney听 14:00听听听
there听is听trees there is already in Sri, ah, that does this kind of听听
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Matt听Winning听 14:03听听听
there's an app.听听
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Mat听Disney听 14:04听听听
Yeah. Oh, what a NASA app that looks at, you know, tree size. And you know, can you estimate how much carbon is in your tree?听听
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Matt听Winning听 14:11听听听
Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for joining us today.听
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Unknown听Speaker听 14:14听听听
No problem. And I always like to talk about trees.听
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Matt听Winning听 14:17听听听
I mean, a query听and also, I know realise that I like to listen to people听to talking听about trees. So fantastic. So, Mat, we are asking our guests, if you could keep one thing that we need in 30听years time听to help climate change, what would it be? Or if you could get rid of one thing that would no longer exist in 30听years time? What would that be or create something new听
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Unknown听Speaker听 14:39听听听
keep things is the whole bounce of tropical rainforest?听听
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Matt听Winning听 14:42听听听
Yes听great answer. I mean,听fairly sensible. Done.听听
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Mat听Disney听 14:46听听听
We're听gonna听need a听fairly large听container.听
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Matt听Winning听 14:48听听听
Yeah, we're听gonna听need somewhere to put it.听
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果冻影院听Minds听 14:52听听听
To download the NASA app and try weighing trees yourself, visit ucl.ac.uk/generation- one.听
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Matt听Winning听 15:04听听听
Okay, so our second guest for today is Craig Bennett, who is the CEO of the wildlife trusts and used to attend 果冻影院.听So听we'll talk about what the听the听trust's mission is, and why the work matters. Hello, Craig.听听
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Craig听Bennett听 15:18听听听
Hello there.听听
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Matt听Winning听 15:19听听听
Lovely to speak to you. What did you What did you do at 果冻影院?听
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Craig听Bennett听 15:22听听听
I did the MSc in conservation, nature conservation, which at the time was a sort of a joint initiative between the Department of Biology and Department of Geography. And I, I loved it听
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Matt听Winning听 15:32听听听
That sounds like an interesting course. And听also听you've gone on to clearly use your degree, which is wonderful to hear, essentially, yeah, what is the mission of the Wildlife Trust? What听what听do you spend your time doing?听
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Craig听Bennett听 15:45听听听
Well very simply it's to bring nature back, bring wildlife back. But I think, given the science we've seen over the emerge over the last few decades, and you know, that phrase that we've heard time and again, that we're facing a climate and ecological emergency, and the science really does back it up. Our mission now is simply that that nature is being used to overcome those climate and nature emergencies, and that by 2030, that we are very clearly on the journey to having turned, turned the corner on those and make sure that all those trends we've seen of declining animal populations of parts per million of carbon in the atmosphere going up, actually, we've听turned those around by 2013. They're starting to head in the right direction.听
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Matt听Winning听 16:29听听听
You touched there on how things have been declining, how things are getting worse. Let's start with the kind of bad news first,听How听bad has it got or on how bad may get?听听
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Craig听Bennett听 16:39听听听
Well听there's different ways of looking at it, here in the UK the statistic I quote time and again, is that 41% of our wildlife species have declined in abundance since the early 1970s. So roughly in my lifetime, 41% wildlife species are poor and thinner, if you like than they once were in terms of number of those individuals. We've seen increased fragmentation of wildlife habitats. And听basically听nature's not听just not听working the way it should be. We do not have the functioning ecosystems in this country that we really should have. Just in the last couple of weeks, we saw a report by the Natural History Museum, saying that the UK is one of the most nature depleted countries anywhere in the world. I think scientists have been warning us about it for decades. I remember two, three decades ago, the first time I came across the听the听argument that if we continue to fragment wildlife habitats, particular tropics, that that would lead to the emergence of more and more pandemics. And听so听we've seen that with Ebola with SARS, of course, back to HIV in the 1980s. And of course, most recently, I think almost certainly will end up being proved that COVID was caused as a zoonotic escape from wildlife populations into humans, because very simply, we're not making enough space for nature.听
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Matt听Winning听 17:54听听听
Yeah, I think that's听a really interesting听point.听Actually, as听you see, I think a lot of people, especially in the West, perhaps felt like they were maybe insulated from things like this. How much worse could it get? If we if we sort of听continue on听this path?听
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Unknown听Speaker听 18:09听听听
Well, I mean, we are still seeing those wildlife declines, we're still seeing fragmentation of wildlife habitat. But what's so frustrating about that is we know what we need to do to turn that around. I mean, globally, it's sort of been setting out a target of trying to get 30% of our land and sea into recovery for nature, by 2030. And that is the sort of听bare essentials听that we need to kind of turn this around is the kind of equivalent in biodiversity terms, if you like, of the听1.5 degree听temperature goal in around the climate talks. We've needed that for biodiversity for a long time, something to focus on. And, you know, yes, there's sort of scientific underpinning as to why that's necessary. Yes, it's roughly around at least a third of our land and see if it can be managed primarily for nature, and to let nature thrive, and then that would provide the foundation for nature's recovery. But as ever, with these things like the听1.5 degree听target, 30% target, these are sort of a mishmash of scientific targets and political target, something that people can agree on, and kind of focus on. And the problem about this is, is that the change that you see environmental change is not linear. The real concern that we have听at the moment听is that you can push, for example, on climate into a different state where you see positive feedback loops in the Earth system positive in this case is not good. What it means is you get this mutually reinforcing cycle in the Earth's climate system or in nature, where because as humans, we've tipped things to a certain point, then it sort of moves into a new state, and it's very hard to get back from there. We move into runaway climate change, for example.听So听we really听have to听act immediately. And if we could wave a magic wand and solve this tonight, that would be the thing to do.听So听but instead, what we听have to听do, is we听have to听really, really determine that we're听gonna听we're听gonna听to make a big difference by 2013 Put all the efforts into turning around the climate ecological crisis in the next 10 years.听
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Matt听Winning听 20:06听听听
Yes, super point there about the kind of complexity of all this as well.听So听what would be in terms of protecting land and sea by 2030? What are the sorts of things that need to be implemented there? What are the actions that need to be taken at a kind of high level,听
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Craig听Bennett听 20:23听听听
I mean, it varies from country to country but听but听take the UK as an example, there's broadly three things we need to do. The first is we need to make more space for nature. So that does mean that we need to get as I said, around 30% of our land and sea being managed for nature. And听at the moment, actually, we've only got around 5%, that is听actually in听good condition.听So听we've got a long way to go over the next nine years to get to 30%. That means we need to get our current designated sites, our sites of special scientific interest in good condition. And you know, half of them听are听not听at the moment. And national parks and our areas of outstanding natural beauty or landscape designations. They're not actually primarily wildlife听designations, but听manage them in a wild way would help.听At the moment, sometimes our wildlife is in a worse condition inside our national parks and outside them. But it's not just the quantity of land we're talking about. It's听actually the听connections between them as well. So good wildlife corridors, linking up current reserves and designated sites out in the countryside, including part of agriculture, let's move to from intensive agriculture to regenerative agriculture, where there's more space for nature, and we have those field boundaries that could produce a nature recovery network.听听
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Craig Bennett 21:38听听听
The second thing we need to do is restore the abundance of nature. So not just a space, but the abundance of our wildlife populations. You know, I was saying before how 41% of our wildlife species have declined in abundance in the last 40-50 years, including, for example, some of our bee populations. A lot of that is associated with use of pesticides.听So听we absolutely need to be cutting the听amount听of pesticides we use, create more habitat for wildlife populations, and restore the abundance. But we also need to get nature working again. For example, our wetlands need to be wet. As simple as that. And听at the moment, many of our chalk streams run dry. We need to reintroduce species that are missing like beavers.听So听for example, beavers are very good at holding water back into their landscape and being those ecosystem engineers that make sure our wetlands are wet. Those are just some examples of what we need to be doing there to get nature working again.听
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Matt听Winning听 22:28听听听
I do remember a couple years ago when Michael Gove was the Environment Secretary, I think he released a pair of beavers back into the Forest of Dean. Do we need Michael Gove to go around the country just sort of throwing beavers in all the rivers?听
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Craig Bennett 22:44听听听
Well, the Wildlife Trusts we have a听beavers听in enclosures right across the country听at the moment, waiting for the permissions from Defra to allow us to have free roaming beavers听at the moment听it is听actually against听the law to release beavers into the wild. Can you believe! There is a consultation going on right听now?听Thankfully, about by Defra to say yes, beavers can be released in the wild and have wild roaming beavers. At the Wildlife Trust we are beaver ready! We're听absolutely ready听with these beavers in our enclosures ready for right across the country.听听
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Matt听Winning听 23:18听听听
Yeah, yeah, yeah听
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Craig Bennett 23:19听听听
We don't need Michael Gove for that one, we just need to be told by Defra, hopefully in the new year that we can take down those fences and have beavers returning to British ecosystems. And to put it clear, you know, there's sometimes a debate about reintroducing these species. They are just as British as Shakespeare or just as British as Yorkshire pudding or anything else you might like to choose. It is just a scandal that they've been missing from our ecosystems听
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Matt听Winning听 23:45听听听
Release the Beavers, I'll wait for wait for that to be shouted from the rooftops.听So听thank you so much for joining us. Craig really appreciated, chatting with you, we've got a question that we've been asking our guests, which is just about thinking about a time capsule related to climate change. So听So听is there something that you would like to get rid听off听over that you know, something that doesn't exist in 30听years time听or something that you would like to sort of keep in see 30听years time? Or is there something we you know, we could create something brand new,听
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Craig听Bennett听 24:14听听听
we're like the obvious thing to get rid of and you were talking before about how climate change climate ecological emergency can be really complicated. That's true. But also on one level, it's听really simple, on climate change, you solve climate change, if you stop using fossil fuels, it's as simple as that really. It would be an oil barrel that I would put in that time capsule to get rid of. And that could be听really clear.听
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Matt听Winning听 24:35听听听
I like that. I like that you've put it you know, a barrel of oil in there, which is essentially all sorts of wildlife but for a long, long time ago,听
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Craig听Bennett听 24:44听听听
Let's keep fossilised biodiversity fossilised.听
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果冻影院听Minds听 24:49听听听
You're listening to 果冻影院 generation one, turning science and ideas into climate action.听
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Matt听Winning听 25:01听听听
Well, that was Craig Bennett, the CEO of The Wildlife Trusts talking about wildlife, protecting it and the fact that they are beaver ready. Up next Mark Maslin is going to round up the week's news stories that he thinks you should know about climate change. I might not even be news stories and maybe, you know, gossip columns. It could be heat magazine is about heat, I think now, I don't know. Anyway, point is Marks up next.听
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I've been Matt winning. And that's it from this episode of Generation One from 果冻影院, turning climate science into action. If you'd like to ask a question or suggest a听guest, or听leave us a voice note in an email that you would like to hear, then you can do that at听podcasts@ucl.ac.uk. Otherwise, for more information about 果冻影院's work in the climate space, and what our staff and students as well as our researchers are doing to make sure that we don't just talk the talk but听actually walk听the walk to a more sustainable future, head over to 果冻影院 Generation One website, or use the hashtag 果冻影院 Generation One听
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