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Episode 2: transcript
Welcome back to Black Lives at 果冻影院. In this episode, our host Tunde Banjoko听OBE speaks to three members of 果冻影院鈥檚 Professional Services Staff. 听
- Noel Caliste, an Executive Assistant working within the Library Services, and the Chair of 果冻影院鈥檚 LGBTQ+ Equality Steering Group. 听
- Terrie Fiawoo, Departmental Manager of the Department for Population, Policy and Practice at Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health. She is Chair of the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Group; Co-chair of the Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health鈥檚 Race Equity Group, and sits on 果冻影院鈥檚 Race Equality Steering Group.听
- Marcia Jacks, Institute Manager for the EGA Institute for Women鈥檚 Health and Co-chair of 果冻影院鈥檚 Race Equality Steering Group.听
Transcript: Professional听Services听Staff听
Tunde听Banjoko听听00:05听
Hello, welcome to Black Lives at 果冻影院, a new podcast that amplifies the voices of 果冻影院's听Black听staff and students. In each episode, we'll be hearing from three people from the 果冻影院 community about their experiences of race, racialisation and systemic racism, and asking what we need to change听in order to听be better.听My name is Tunde Banjoko听OBE. I'm a social justice advocate, 果冻影院 alumnus and the founder of multiple initiatives that are trying to help make the world a fairer place, initiatives like the charity Making the Leap, the UK Social Mobility Awards, and our latest venture Black Charity Leaders.听I'm here to start a conversation with听Black staff and students here at 果冻影院. I want to know more about their life as part of the 果冻影院 community, both the good bits and the not so good bits. More than that, I'm going to be asking my guests to draw on their听experiences, and听talk about what we need to do to change.听This is Black Lives at 果冻影院.听So, let me introduce my guests. Today, I'm going to be speaking with members of 果冻影院 professional services staff. They are Noel Caliste, an Executive Assistant at 果冻影院 working within the Library Services, Noel is also the chair of 果冻影院鈥檚 LGBTQ+ Equality Steering Group; Terrie Fiawoo, the department manager of the Department for Population, Policy and Practice at Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health and chair of their Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Group, she is also the co-chair of the Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health鈥檚 Race Equity Group and sits on the 果冻影院 Race Equality Steering Group; and, Maria Jacks the Institute Manager for the EGA Institute for Women鈥檚 Health and Co-Chair of 果冻影院鈥檚 Race Equality Steering Group.听听So听before we start our discussion about race and 果冻影院's relationship with it, I'm going to chat to each of today's guests to hear a bit more about what they do. We're going to start with you Noel, tell us a little bit about your time here at 果冻影院 - when did you join the 果冻影院 community and what does an executive assistant do?听
Noel听Caliste听听02:31听
This is my second time at 果冻影院, my first time was back in 2015 and my current time has been since 2019, so I've been here for two years. And Executive Assistant, it basically organises the people around them.听So听their diaries, their lives... make sure they've got what they need for their meetings. It requires a lot of听organisation听and a lot of听self-management, which I guess are skills that I'm good at. But that's essentially what my job involves.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听03:07听
You must have liked it to have done it twice.听
Noel听Caliste听听03:09听
Er... well, I guess the question I need to ask is, why did I leave the first time. But, yeah, I mean, as an institution,听like generally speaking, 果冻影院听is a good place to work.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听03:24听
Okay, thank you. Now, tell us a bit about the LGBTQ+ Equality Steering Group, and how did you get involved with it?听
Noel听Caliste听听03:31听
The LGBTQ+ Steering Group is a steering group of staff and research students set up to provide support and guidance towards the senior management team at 果冻影院 to help people feel more at ease about being themselves while at work.听So听when I was working at a different institution, I crossed paths with the then chairs of the group and we kind of had just a general chitchat in passing, just kind of how the institutions work differently and what our aims were. And then when I ended up coming back to 果冻影院, it coincided with the one of the previous co-chairs stepping down, and I just saw it as an opportunity to kind of make my听mark听I guess. In recent years, I've become very conscious of representation and visibility and my role as chair of the LGBTQ equality steering group and the wider听Out@果冻影院听network gives me the chance to be representative of being a听Black gay man at 果冻影院, to celebrate our differences while educating and inspiring others around me as I have been. I think what I struggle with at 果冻影院 is not so much recently, but in the past, is a lack of听Black people kind of being听represented听I guess. I would look, so I would look prior to me joining the steering group, I've looked at the group and nearly all the people in the group are white people. And I guess you kind of get to the point where you want to be the change you want to see. And if you want representation, then you kind of听have to听initiate it. And so that was my thinking behind that.听So听we still are lacking in听Black people on the committee. But I think it's a start.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听05:24听
What kind of projects have you been working on to make 果冻影院 a more inclusive place for LGBTQ+ students and why are these projects needed?听
Noel听Caliste听听05:33听
So听our focus is mainly on staff, so it's basically allowing staff to feel comfortable within their working environment to be open about who they are and so it's setting up the platforms to facilitate that.听So听whether that be a social setting, or whether that be something specific within a department, or just to kind of allow them to be their true self whilst at work. I mean, we had in the... I think it was 2017 survey staff survey, off the top of my head, I think it was only 40% of staff today feel comfortable disclosing their sexual preferences in the working environment. While it shouldn't necessarily be an issue, we then are kind of trying to correct that and trying to see the reasoning behind that.听At the moment, we are looking at trying to do a specific staff survey to try and highlight where there may be pitfalls in people feeling comfortable work. In 2019, we had our largest cohort of people attending Pride in London, with 85 members of staff and students taking place. We had our first presence at Black Pride in London in听2019 and first presence at Trans Pride in Brighton in 2019. We also issued a Trans Community Statement of Support, which we felt was necessary as a larger community. It's felt, and I feel, that until we all have equal rights, the fight kind of听has to听continue for our trans members of staff and students.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听07:17听
Thank you, that kicks us off nicely. Okay, now to you Terry, how long have you been a part of the 果冻影院 community and what do you do here?听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听07:26听
I joined in 2015. By accident - in that I never听thought听about 果冻影院, I wandered into a part of the Royal Free hospital that was 果冻影院 and it made me think maybe I should go there and just get back into that university environment. After studying, I kind of left it... life takes you in different directions, doesn't it? And听so听you听felt听or I felt a bit out of the loop.听So听I came back thinking it might take me to my PhD. We haven't got there yet, but maybe. And I came to PPP only last July,听
Tunde听Banjoko听听07:57听
What's PPP?听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听07:59听
Sorry, Population, Policy and Practice. I have worked for the Institute of Child Health. I started here in 2016, took a little detour to a different Institute and then came back because I love it here. And overall, I've had a great experience at ICH, I must say they are quite progressive here and they want to make change happen.听So听I think this is probably the best place for me right now.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听08:21听
Okay, well, you mentioned it briefly, but you've got an MA in Social and Cultural History and your studies have focused on Black British History, is that correct?听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听08:30听
I feel like there's a huge gap there - we always look at America as our standard of history. And we've got to think America came out of Britain in some way.听So听to ignore the fact that we have a very strong history of interaction with the world, it doesn't make sense, especially as we colonised most of it at one point.听So听I always had a听really strong听interest in the presence of听Black people in Britain before, say, the Windrush generation because that almost gets... well it does get forgotten, to be honest.听So听I used to always just pick the modules and stuff that could allow me to study this in more detail. But what bothered me is that I never learned any of this unless I went searching before going to university - schools missed it out totally. And even today, schools only focus on the negative history of听Black听people. Our kids are taught about themselves in line with colonialism and slavery and we're never really taught about our greatness, you know, as kings and queens of Africa, you know, and that bothers me. My kids believe their royalty. They are royalty as far as I'm concerned. And听actually听my grandmother was coronated only last year. She's nearly 100 and some Africans like this kind of thing, don't they? She听travelled听to the other part of Ghana to become a queen of a nation she's never even met, you know. I think it's important that we听realise听that we're a great people and we're always only learning about ourselves in relation to what's been done to us, not what we've done for the world. So that's why I听kind of tried to focus on my studies and looking at the positive aspect, looking at our presence and our contributions to society, as opposed to just the fact that we have been oppressed. So yeah, that's me going off on one so.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听10:14听
(Laughing) it's all good. Passion is good. Can you tell us how this has informed the work you do, as part of Great Ormond Street's Race Equity听Group,听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听10:22听
What we're trying to do is not just rebrand and cover over and rename things, I feel like we want to give people a voice. But we also want to make real change. And so, for example, one thing that we're looking at along with the Institute's EPI committee is recruitment. Now, this is simple, we always say, you know, we need to make sure our panels are diverse, blah, blah, blah. But the same people always get asked to sit on these panels within the departments. I'm one of those people that gets asked. And there's another lady, she's always been asked, which says to me, actually, we're听still not doing it correctly, because we should be, if we're employing correctly, we should have more people from diverse backgrounds, working in our departments. But that number is not necessarily growing. Although we're hitting the target of making sure our interview panels are diverse. So do you understand what's happening here, okay, we're, we're making sure everybody's interviewed by a diverse panel. But that doesn't mean that we're getting enough people from ethnic minorities coming into the university.听So听we need to start looking at why that is. Because it's all well and good, you're hitting those targets. But really, you're not making a change, you know, essentially, on a basic level.听So听what I suggest is that we听actually start听looking at where we advertise, people need to recognise that they can come and work at 果冻影院. Outside of being an academic, you don't think about coming, I didn't, you know, I, I worked at the hospital and it's only because the consultants I looked after were part of 果冻影院 that made me think, oh, 果冻影院 could be a place I could work. Why is that I studied in university, and I still never thought that I could come work at 果冻影院. It was by accident that happened.听So听I feel like we need to be getting our name out there into groups of people that don't think that they could come here so that we do get that diverse load of candidates applying for the jobs, instead of having the same people applying. And okay, we have a racially diverse panel, but we don't have racially diverse candidates coming through.听So听the university space stays the same, that doesn't change. So that's one of the main things we're looking at right now. Where do we go to get a nice balance? Like, you know, the gold is winning 50%, don't we? We need to represent London's population. So how are we going to get that? We can't carry on with the same program and just say, well, we're doing the right thing, because our panels are diverse. To me, that's just changing the name, but not actually changing the structure of it all. So that's one of the things we're doing.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听12:58听
Okay. Well, you get no argument from me on any of that, you're also working with the Black Cultural Archives, which I think is a great charity, what kind of projects have you been working on with them?听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听13:12听
I just finished听a听online exhibition called Journey to the Mother Country, which was, it was awesome, actually, because听they didn't even听realise听they had this information in their archives, or from the听perspective that I was looking at it. So, it... literally it was... the idea was to look at different reasons or motivations for people coming to Britain over 100 years. And how those reasons have changed over time. And听so听I just picked three characters, well three individuals. One was brought here as an exhibit from Ethiopia in the early 1900s and she was paraded around like a... the example of a heathen.听So听she was literally stolen and brought here but you don't hear about that you don't听realise听that, you know,听Black听people were paraded around as examples of what you shouldn't be.听So听we looked at her story. And then we had another lady who came here as a, an employee of the army. And she talks about the patriotism they felt in Jamaica. And you know, it's really interesting the, the feeling of this being their true home, like being a totally different story when they arrived. And听so听this was in the 40s, the 30s, 40s. And then in the 60s, 70s, you've got people coming over here with a more revolutionary idea of life, because they're hearing people speak more outwardly about the wrongs of colonialism. And the idea听that actually, it's听not as good as they say it is.听So听it听kind of just showed how ideas change... everyone's still coming to the UK, but the motivations are听different听and their contributions are different and their experiences are different once they get here. So that's that and then now I'm about to start working on a timeline and digital timeline of the Black Presence in Britain since the Romans, so that'll be interesting.听听
Tunde听Banjoko听听14:57听
Excellent. Thank you for that, Terry. Okay, Marcia, your turn!听So听can you tell us what does managing the EGA Institute for Women's Health entail?听
Marcia听Jacks听听15:07听
I've managed the whole department.听So听I'm responsible for HR, finance, estates, health and safety... so everything, you know, around professional services. And I have a team that I work with.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听15:21听
And you're also Co-chair of 果冻影院 Race Equality Steering Group.听So听can you tell our listeners a bit more about that group and what it hopes to achieve?听
Marcia听Jacks听听15:32听
Okay, so I've been at 果冻影院 around 26 years this year and there's always been a Race Equality Group. I think I got involved soon after I听came actually, it听was in a different form and it was about probably 10 years ago, that I think it was听actually the听director of EDI, that was Fiona, who suggested that we relaunch it because it had kind of gone by the wayside. And听so听we relaunched the Race Equality Group, and it didn't quite go as we planned. And I think about eight years ago, I think it听actually came听from me, I suggested we do a smaller group, which would be a more focus group. And so that's where the term "steering group" came from, so we had a sort of a wider group, and then a Race Equality Steering Group. And the reference for the steering group was that it was a smaller group of about 20 people, and that things would get done and then we would report back to the larger group. And that has really, really transformed and worked quite well over the last few years. The other thing that made it work as well, was the fact that it was previously led mainly by professional services staff and so we brought in a suggestion that we have an academic leading, because then, in terms of them influencing senior staff, it was better if it was an academic. And听so听we had our first chair, who was a researcher and an academic, and that he left and then I was asked to take on the chair.听So听I've been doing that for听about six to seven years now. But over the last few years, it's really gone from strength to strength. And I think that the culture and the way, and just the climate of where we are with race, it's been听really impactful.听So听the group I chair, so I听co-chair听with Michael Sulu, previously it was Ijeoma听Uchegbu, she was the听co-chair, and so we've done quite a lot over the last few years. We've got Vice Deans of EDI on there, we've got a few academics, we've got professional services, staff, and student representatives as well. And all 11 faculties within 果冻影院 are represented within the group - two or three people, even perhaps just one person from the faculty.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听17:56听
Ok great, and could you tell us a bit about some of the projects you've been involved in and what would you say would be your greatest achievements, your greatest hits?听
Marcia听Jacks听听18:06听
So听we've been, as a group, we've been involved in quite a lot of over the last few years.听So听we were involved in the Commission for Inquiry into听eugenics.听So听a few of us were on there, the town hall meeting because of the Black Lives Matter last year 2020 and the town hall meeting that came out of that. So that was major, because major things have come from those projects. Personally, for me, it was... there's a launch of what we call an Inclusive Advocacy Program, which was, I attended a leadership program a few years ago, and that was for听Black听staff, senior听Black听staff. And we were asked to do a project - support something within the听organisation听that we wanted to change. And I was always involved in mentoring听staff听and it was听actually Fiona McClement听that showed me the feedback for what we call a BAME Mentor Scheme. And looking at that feedback, it said that mentorship wasn't sufficient to change recruitment within 果冻影院, to change the career trajectory of BAME staff within 果冻影院.听So听the suggestion was that I looked at a sponsorship scheme, and quite a lot of those were happening in the States.听So听to do some research around that, so I did that. There wasn't much in academia, but then it's how you can transfer whatever's going on in the sort of commercial field, into academia. So that was a project I worked on, I came up with quite a lot of recommendations, and it was taken forward by the EDI team and HR. And I must say, I didn't see how it would work at the time, but they听actually turned听it into a scheme for the inclusive advocacy scheme instead of a sponsorship scheme. And it was launched in 2017 as a pilot, and it's now going to be launched as a听permanent听offering within our organisation development programs.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听20:04听
Excellent all of you. Now that we've learned a bit more about each of you, I want to talk specifically about 果冻影院 and your experiences of it, especially as you all know exactly how 果冻影院 works. You are 果冻影院听experts听and this is a question for all of you: how visible would you say blackness is in the 果冻影院 community? Especially reflecting on your experiences as professional services staff, do you think blackness is less visible than it could or should be?听
Marcia听Jacks听听20:32听
So听for me, I've been blessed in my career, I think, because I started off at administrator grade six, and I'm now manager grade nine.听So听when I听look听I think that, if we're talking about blackness and 果冻影院, there is because there's lots of people on lower grades, there's the security guards, and there's, you know, the cleaners - you do see听Black听people at 果冻影院, I'm not sure if that's, if that's where we're going听with the question. But blackness is, we are visible.听So听for me, my concern is that we're not visible where we should be in terms of the senior staff, because our student body is actually听about听I think it's over 50%. And my concern, even when I was an administrator, not very senior, was that when you look around at that we weren't represented at those higher levels.听So听it's as if we were not able to aspire to be at those higher levels. And obviously, if you can't see yourself, it's less likely that you're going to get there.听So听I was on a mission, even from a lower grade to change things.听So听for an example, I remember having to write to communications to find out why when all the brochures were with all white people. There听were听no visibility of听Black听people in sort of like the student brochures, anything you see in terms of the brochures that went out, of course, it was all paper based then, about a decade ago and much more paper based. And so that was a concern of mine.听So听in terms of that, I think we're doing much better now in terms of visibility, even on the websites, etc. So yes, there is blackness but where we want to aspire to is where our students come in, our junior staff come in, and they see blackness at the top level within 果冻影院 and they can aspire, so we听belong听and we can achieve that as well.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听22:26听
Thanks. Our audience can't see of course, but听I can I can听see Terrie and Noel nodding furiously, as Marcia was speaking.听So听what do you want to say?听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听22:37听
Well, I totally agree with Marcia, this visibility is in certain areas and the problem is, I think, when you do get into those other areas, you are very careful about how you behave and how you talk. And you almost become isolated in those areas. You know, I've sat on in meetings, and I'm looking at the听Black听person who's leading the meeting, and you can see she's biting her tongue the whole time, because someone is just听nit-picking听at nonsense. And I'm like, I don't know if I could have that patience, but is that because I'm mixed and I'm lighter and maybe I will not be... I'll feel more comfortable saying something. And afterwards I've spoken to her about听it听and she says she's learned from an early age, she's dark skinned, and she's a woman and so she听has to听smile. And that saddens me a little bit. Because, you know, when you, even when you get up there, you're, you're still playing their game, you can't just be you. You can't speak your mind. Someone, a white person can say what they want in that听meeting听and you just bide your time and rip your hair out silently. And that, obviously, and that's because you don't have anybody else with you. You're alone up there. You know, you're the only听Black听person in that meeting. Or you may come across as aggressive because you've said, "could you stop听nit-picking听at my spelling mistakes, we're here to talk about something else more important", and that bothers me. And I think that we听have to听find a way to become... to not be the only one in the room so that we are able to show our true selves and be confident and shut down people when they're talking rubbish听and also听move forward positively.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听24:22听
Noel?听
Noel听Caliste听听24:23听
What I would say is that 果冻影院 is... yeah, it's getting better, is what I would say. When like I said, when I first came to 果冻影院, I very much felt like I had to conform to the people around me and kind of how they were. Like the chameleon, to kind of you had to, I had to change myself听in order to听adapt to how the听people were. And I really struggled with that. I also struggled with a perceived generalisation that people had, of what听Black听people were like. So consciously or not, I was听labelled听or assumed to be a certain way. And if I showed any... not weakness, but kind of showed anything, it was almost deemed as a negative, like, that was a, that was a big struggle for me. And then what I would say is this time around, it's been a completely different experience. Don't get me wrong, I have worked for this, but I feel more like I can be myself and not necessarily have to check myself all the time, and not apologise all the time. In my role as chair of the steering group, it is hard because I am a grade seven听and in the group,听there are academics - I think I'm the lowest grade in the group. So sometimes I do question my role and my ability as the only听Black听person, and then again as the lower grade. But then it's a matter of kind of just believing in myself. And I think that because I have the support of the people on the committee, it kind of helps me not worry so much about being听Black, and how I'm coming across.听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听26:15听
I just wanted to say something about the idea of being a chameleon and having to fit in. I went on听a听excellent leadership course a BAME Emerging Leaders course. And that taught me to be me while being a manager, while leading people because I lead white people and at first, when I came in, I thought, "Oh, my gosh, I am the only one in our team", and you know, I'm sitting here with my curly hair and they could be just thinking, put your hair in a hairband, that kind of thing, you know, like, all these things go through your mind. But being in this course, it was a very safe space, because everybody was from a different background. And we spoke very freely. But it gave me the confidence to recognise that my cultural background is very important to how I lead at 果冻影院, how I deal with my staff, and I shouldn't try to be somebody else. But I don't think everybody has that opportunity, so they don't have that confidence, which is something that we听have to听work on.听Also听the confusion of knowing whether someone's being horrible to you, because you're a lower grade because of your skin听colour. I've had people make comments, "oh, you're not academic, you wouldn't know", you know? And is that because I'm professional services? Or is that because they assume I've never studied before because of my听colour听or background.听So听you always have this dilemma of working in professional services, as well as you don't know whether it is because of your colour sometimes or because of your station. So that's a confusing one for me as well. But yeah, that's my point, so, carry on.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听27:45听
(Laughing) okay, what can 果冻影院 do to increase or get better at the areas,听in regard to听racism and blackness, than it currently is? What, what can 果冻影院 do to get better?听
Noel听Caliste听听28:06听
I think they need to take more risks. I think there's a bit of a culture within 果冻影院 where they kind of go with what they know, especially at the higher levels, I think, and obviously I can be, could be wrong. But I think there's this "we could go for the听Black听senior academic, who could come in and change things and switch things up, but let's go with the white man who kind of has his foot or kind of has networks within 果冻影院 already, because then he'll be the safer bet". And until they kind of, until they kind of take the plunge, I don't see anything miraculously changing.听There's听all these initiatives, and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're not good, but I just don't think they're doing enough. I mean, they can say there's not enough senior听Black听academics. But there are senior听Black听academics.听So听whether there's听enough or not, it's kind of irrelevant. It's like if you really wanted to do something, if you really wanted to kind of if you really wanted the visibility and听you听kind of really wanted to make a change, you could.
Tunde听Banjoko听听29:21听
Ok, Marcia?听
Marcia听Jacks听听29:23听
Right, so as somebody who is what is听actually on听the committees that are trying to make change, I think a lot is happening. For instance, we do the, Ijeoma and myself - she's the Vice Race Envoy for 果冻影院, and we've been doing these faculty roadshows for the last three years, which is where we take the data on staff recruitment and student awarding gap, and we take it, initially we took it to the Deans of the faculties, second year increased to more people and now it's to the whole leadership teams and within faculties and they look at that data and where there's under representative-under representation, they're actually having action plans to deal with it.听So听most of the faculties now have their own EDI teams and their own action plan.听So听coming from where we used to be, I've seen a major shift. In the last few years, when we first started to do these road shows, we had some hostility in terms of how they perceived and how they welcomed us, this year, it was completely gone - people are more engaged.听So听I think, if you think about 果冻影院, which there are 11 faculties, I hope I'm saying this, I'm sure there is 11 plus the dental divisions, each faculty, as far as I'm concerned, has got a different culture.听So听it's like 11, plus cultures within one听organisation听and it's how you get everybody to work the same. And 果冻影院 is made up of people and some people will be wanting change, some people will听not听and I think it takes longer than we probably think it should to听actually bring听people on board. And it's like a strategy of how听do you get听these people to change and it is people that's going to change things, it's not going to be programs, it's not going to be initiatives - you can have as many initiatives as you want is how they're going to be delivered and they're going to be delivered by people.听So听for instance, we are wanting the leadership, the leaders, the managers to have more autonomy and take more responsibility for these initiatives, because they're the one that's going to bring it about听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听31:37听
Something that Marcia said, people, as she's mentioned, initiatives, blah-dee-blah-blah, we can do this all day, but it's people. Last October, I done an event, which focused on different people and their successes, you know, pushing through the adversity. And some of the stories that were told for me seemed听really light, but I had white people coming up to me afterwards and saying, "Wow, that made me cry, I couldn't believe it听and I听realised, although I wasn't racist, I wasn't听anti-racist". And听so听you live comfortably knowing you're not the perpetrator of racism, but you don't听actually take听any action to change it. And听so听I think what we听have to听do, and this is something that ICH are trying to do, is start a campaign of听anti-racism, teaching people, how they can speak out, teaching people to look at themselves and reflect to how they behave, and how they contribute to the problem, even though they're not doing anything wrong. As such, by standing there, you're complicit - by not making a change, you're complicit.听So听we听have to听actually almost听get it so that people, individuals are听self-evaluating, and then wanting to contribute to the change, wanting to be听anti-racist, instead of just not being racist.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听32:56听
Noel?听
Noel听Caliste听听32:57听
Yeah, I mean, it's just an extension of what's been said, really, I mean, it's fine having initiatives within the faculties and the departments and kind of increasing visibility for ethnic backgrounds, or听Black听backgrounds. But when the people who are running the institution are effectively all white, you kind of need to wonder how far they're wanting to effect the change. Because until, personally speaking, until they, they kind of mix that up and show visibility of different races, their initiative can only go so far.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听33:34听
Thank you. All right, so, it's been really听enjoyable听and I've really enjoyed your insights. And I'm听going to听end this episode in the same way that I'll be ending all the episodes, which is to ask you one final question: what is your听favourite听place at 果冻影院 and why is it your听favourite听place?听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听34:00听
My little covered office space.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听34:05听
Tell me about it?听
Terrie听Fiawoo听听34:06听
You know what it was, it was the telephone room before lockdown. And I was like, "This is my room now". It is lovely.听There's听no windows or just a little glass panel that people can look at me through if they want to give me something. And it's peaceful. It allows me to just have a moment to myself away from听all of听the noise and, you know, family life and all of that. And听so听I听actually come听to 果冻影院 because of this quiet space, which is听really sad, you know?听Obviously听I do my work while I'm here, but it is it is nice, just coming here and having that peaceful moment without having to interact with anybody unless you really want to.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听34:43听
Noel?听
Noel听Caliste听听34:44听
Mine's... it听has to听be a specific time - it听has to听be when it's sunny, but it's to sit on the steps of the Portico. And kind of look out to London, see the skyline whilst taking in the sun. Just seeing the back and forth of students and staff in and out of the gates. It just allows you to kind of escape the hustle and bustle of the day and just catch听yourself听I guess. So yeah, that would be my, my听favourite听place.听
Tunde听Banjoko听听35:15听
And Marcia?听
Marcia听Jacks听听35:17听
Yeah, mine in my office. I think it's larger than Terrie's - I've got a meeting table in there (laughing) so it's larger than Terrie's. I say this because my kids will... I used to work very long hours and my kids were saying it's like your home you know, it's like there was no difference between home and work in the in the sense that I mean, I did some crazy hours at work, but I enjoy my work and so many things happened in my office: the conversations, I do a lot of mentoring and so my office is my place. Obviously, things have听changed听and I've got used to working from home now.听So听things will change. I don't think I'll ever go back to being the same.听听
Tunde听Banjoko听听35:51听
I'd really like to thank my guests Noel Caliste, Terrie Fiawoo and Marcia Jacks. Thank you all very much indeed. I really enjoyed hearing from you all.听听
Kyla听Jardine听听36:07听
Black Lives at 果冻影院 was presented by Tunde Banjoko, produced and written by Kyla Jardine and Cerys Bradley.听The music for the podcast was produced by Amine Mabrouk.听If you'd like to hear more podcasts from 果冻影院, subscribe wherever you download your podcasts or visit ucl.ac.uk/果冻影院-minds. And don't forget, you can also follow us on Twitter @果冻影院.听Thanks for听listening听